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Though Capcom’s action game series has always had a particular sound for its gothic-horror-aesthetic, the current game, Devil May Cry 5, features music that really goes the extra mile to get players to feel something more as they’re working their way up to SSS rank. GameSpot recently interviewed DMC5 composers Cody Matthew Johnson and husband-wife team Casey and Ali Edwards about the making of the action game’s main tracks for its cast of characters. During this talk, they spoke about their collaboration with Capcom, how the game’s energizing and dynamic soundtrack is a game-changer, and what it’s like having the internet embrace their new sound.

Editor’s Note: This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.

Can you talk about what it was like working with Capcom for this project, and how they first got in contact with you?

Casey Edwards: Funny enough, even though I ended up writing the track Devil Trigger, I got found through one of Ali’s older tracks that she did for another video game called Killer Instinct with Mick Gordon [B. Orchid’s Theme, in particular]. I actually did some work on that game as well, assisting the composer.

Ali Edwards: Yeah, it’s like they wanted both of us without knowing that we even knew each other, or that we were married at all.

Casey: Yeah, Capcom heard that particular track and they really liked the drive that it had. It really just stood out to everyone. When I wrote Devil Trigger, I pitched her as the vocalist and they just immediately fell in love with it. So, it kinda just worked out in a weird, coincidental, ironic way.

And Cody, this is actually your third collaboration with Capcom, the first being for Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite?

Cody M. Johnson: That is true. My career is still in the early stages, which is really exciting as all these things are happening. My collaborator Jeff Rona and I did three games back to back for Capcom. We didn’t really stop. We started off with Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite. Right after that came out, word got around to another development team about what we were doing, and they liked what they heard. So they came back to us. Right out of the gate I was working with Jeff, who wrote “Crimson Cloud” [V’s Theme], and I ended up writing “Subhuman” [Dante’s theme]. We worked on Devil May Cry 5 first, but then shortly after that, another team at Capcom hit us up to do Resident Evil 2 shortly after. So it’s been pretty exciting.

Were you fans of the series before you worked on this game?

Cody: I had played Devil May Cry 4 and the previous games a lot. I was still young enough to sneak away and play them with my friends, but it was so hard, I didn’t get very far. Even as an experienced gamer now, I’ve come back to try to play them, when I first picked up Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite–but they’re just so hard. They’re still one of the hardest games I’ve ever played to date.

Casey: I actually grew up playing Devil May Cry. So I remembered the whole Devil Trigger aspect of the game pretty vividly, and that was what was sticking out in my head as I was writing the song. I couldn’t get it out of my head and yeah, I don’t know, I just wrote it and we just went with it. I thought for sure someone from Capcom was gonna send me an email back saying, “Hey, you need to change that.”

Ali: But that didn’t happen. They all loved it.

The big line of the song, “bang, bang, bang, pull my Devil Trigger,” is such an earworm, and it feels so appropriate for the series.

Casey: Right, I remember writing that. I wrote all these lyrics in one sitting, pretty much. For that particular part, I was looking at Ali, and then I verbalized what she was about to sing.

Ali: You were so worried I was gonna hate it!

Casey: To me, that was kind of a fun phrase. I just wasn’t sure if it would latch on to the Devil May Cry fans, you know?

Last I checked, Devil Trigger has over 21 million views on YouTube. Having those earlier reservations, are you surprised to see how much it has taken off?

Casey: Well, first of all, it’s pretty freakin’ crazy. That’s a lot of plays. It kinda blows my mind a little bit. I think there might be a few factors involved in that. People have been really excited to see a continuation of [classic] Devil May Cry. I guess in the sense that you say, the song is holding its own water a little bit as well, yeah, I don’t know what to say other than it’s pretty insane that people have played the song that many times.

Ali: Yeah, it’s definitely something we didn’t expect. We were more worried that fans would hate the track, and it would become a meme. Instead, it became a meme in the best possible way.

Both of you even got to perform the song live at The Game Awards. They had Rivers Cuomo from Weezer introduce your performance.

Casey: Yeah, that was awesome. We actually got to run into Rivers after that, and it was pretty great getting to take pictures with him and nerd out. I mean gosh, yeah, I was listening to them back in high school, so that was pretty awesome. And yeah, getting to play at The Game Awards was, I mean, a dream come true. And I know it’s a relatively new awards show, but they had so many awesome people on stage, and we got to share a stage with Hans Zimmer. That’s nuts.

Ali: Yeah, that was pretty crazy, it was a blast. It was such a crazy production if you think about it. It takes a huge team to put on a production of that magnitude. It’s crazy seeing it all happen, and being a part of it, continuously.

As far as working on Devil May Cry 5, I can only imagine how much planning went into writing the tracks and getting them just write. Can you talk about what the collaborative process was like with the other composers at Capcom.

Cody: Yeah, from the very beginning, Capcom wanted, I should say, independence. They wanted to make sure each of these key tracks could exist separately from one other, but still work together within the Devil May Cry universe. We worked with Kota Suzuki [DMC5’s main composer], who actually wrote the track “Legacy,” which was in the final trailer. He was part of the development team that flew out to LA when we did the recording sessions for the bigger tracks, including “Subhuman” and “Crimson Cloud.” Other than that, Capcom didn’t really restrict us; they really wanted the score in these scenes to give identity to their characters.

Casey: When we were working with Capcom Japan, they had some clear visions for what they wanted for some of these tracks, and it was really nice getting to implement previous work I had done in the game, and getting to bring it to new light towards the end of the gaming experience.

Ali: After they heard me on “Devil Trigger,” I guess maybe that’s when they reached out for “Legacy” with me. I didn’t think was going to happen until the game was released. I wasn’t sure that was ever going to see the light of day in trailer form. And so I remember being pleasantly surprised when that came out. It’s an exciting track, it’s really beautiful, with swelling strings, and it was amazing for the fans to finally hear that. Working with Kota on that was a great experience as well.

That song really comes up at such a great moment in the game. It also highlights how different a lot of the tracks are in the game, yet they work really well when you bring it all together.

Casey: Yeah, for sure. I think that’s one thing people can get lost sometimes. They forget, “Devil Trigger,” for instance, is some weird hybrid rock pop thing, but I am also a classically trained orchestral composer and Ali does anything from soft, ethereal vocals to just mind-blowing powerful pop vocals, and stuff like that.

Ali: I started out as a jazz singer, so there’s that, too. But we got to be totally crazy with it. Working on a session musician, you can be asked to do anything, and I think your willingness to be a chameleon is really where your usability as a session musician really comes into play. The more I can become a chameleon and adhere to different genres of music, I mean, that’s why I’m being asked to work on video games. If I couldn’t do that, I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to work on so many incredible games so far.

Looking back on the history of the series, Devil May Cry has this really deep focus on presenting bombastic and energizing tracks. Another game in the series that had a really eclectic soundtrack was Ninja Theory’s DmC: Devil May Cry–featuring Noisia and Combichrist. Did the style of that game have any influence on this one?

Cody: Well from the very start, everything was based on Devil May Cry 4, as in all the references they sent us. But of course, it was something I personally looked into. It’s important to understand the trajectory of all these games, where it’s been, and how the fans reacted. And you need to make a decision about where you want your art to align with. It was very conscious from the very beginning that this game is Devil May Cry 5. That was a very conscious decision, not to stay away from that version of DmC, but to separate from it, stylistically. But yeah, the combat system that matures and alters the music was something we really liked about that game.

It’s really thrilling to hear DMC5’s music evolve depending on how well you’re playing.

Cody: Yeah, It was just something we were very conscious of from the very beginning. We don’t want to leave any players behind, but we didn’t want to make it easier for players either. It’s all about challenging yourself. But the worst thing that could happen would be if the game’s music was boring. I know this as a gamer, I know this as someone who goes listens to the same 32-second track on loop for hours. It’s the worst thing in the world: You’re stuck on a level for three days, you don’t wanna be listening to the same piece of music.

We really tried to craft these songs in a way, that if you don’t hit SSS rank, you don’t ever hear the chorus or the breakdown. By doing that, those parts of the song will never get boring. The goal from the start was to incentivize the player. There is something more, you should do your absolute best to get to your SSS, and you’ll get the payoff. There should be rewards for those players that accomplish that, and I think we achieved something beyond the normal combat music.

Did you enjoy your experience working with Capcom on Devil May Cry 5?

Cody: They’ve always been happy with what we’ve done and we’re always happy to give it to ’em. They’re such an amazing collaborator, and they really care about artistic vision, and they care about what you can bring to the table, and it’s truly an amazing experience working with them.

Casey: I was super excited to work on Devil May Cry. I’ve been playing this game since Devil May Cry 1, which came out in 2001. I remember my mom taking me to Blockbuster to rent it. And then you fast forward to 2017, when I was asked to work on it, I was already so freaking pumped to get started on it. We’re classically trained and I play guitar as well in the STEM program, right? I love doing so many different things and different genres. So being asked to genre hop is one of the best things about working in the field. TV and video games and film, all alike, and one day you could be writing a solo piano piece and the next day you’re writing “Devil Trigger.”

Ali: Yeah, for me, video games have always been a pretty large part of my life. It’s always been a love of mine. So, I remember playing games with my cousins when we were all kids and it was this bonding experience for all of us. And I never would’ve imagined that I’d be working on video games today. It’s kind of crazy to think about, but I absolutely love what I do. I love being able to work on various projects across various genres and kind of become a different person for a little while. And it’s really, really humbling, seeing how the fans have accepted our work. It’s very humbling, it’s very exciting, and, all in all, we’re very grateful to be a part of the Devil May Cry family.

I don’t know why I’m in Washington DC; some lady just told me to be here. But there are civilians in distress, armed gangs roaming the streets, and me, my pals, and the second amendment are apparently the only ones who can actually do anything about it. I have no idea what, if anything, is going on with the bigwigs I met in the White House. But so long as I’m helping folks, sending relatively bad people to bed, walking the pretty streets, and picking up a new pair of gloves every so often, I’m very happy to hang around.

In the world of Tom Clancy’s The Division 2, the USA has been ravaged by a virus and society has crumbled. While those who remain try to survive by banding together in groups of various dispositions, the Strategic Homeland Division activates highly specialized sleeper agents to try and restore order. It’s a setting ripe in potential, perhaps to tell a ripping techno-thriller story that scrutinizes the structures of our modern society and government, or perhaps to make a video game that leverages the chaos that occurs when multiple idealistic groups clash in a vie for power in a lawless city. The Division 2 only does one of these things.

It’s not the story. Throughout the entirety of The Division 2’s main campaign, never did the game spend a satisfactory amount of time on any semblance of an overarching plot, or the predicaments of its supposedly important figures. There are no character arcs, only abrupt setups and consequences. Narrative devices, like audio logs found in the world, add nothing of consequence. Even the game’s biggest macguffins–the President of the United States and his briefcase containing a cure for the virus–have a minimal amount of absolutely forgettable screen time. The opportunity to use The Division 2 to create meaningful fiction is wasted.

Instead, The Division 2 focuses its narrative chops into worldbuilding. The city, a ravaged Washington DC, initially feels a little homogenous in the way most Western cities do. But after some time, the personality of the different districts–the buildings, the landmarks, the natural spaces, and the ways they’ve been repurposed or affected by the cataclysm–begins to shine through. It’s this strength of environment which lays a very strong foundation for The Division 2 as a video game, creating an engrossing, believable, and contiguous open world.

Moving from your safehouse to the open world and your next mission area is almost entirely seamless. It’s something that was also true of the original Division, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the simple act of going from place to place in The Division 2 is one of the game’s more rewarding aspects. One road may lead to a skirmish with a rival patrol or an optional activity, another might simply give you another stirring scene of urban decay in the morning sun. An obscured shortcut through an apartment block might turn up some useful items in an abandoned home, which you might decide to donate to the makeshift settlements where civilians have attempted to rebuild their lives.

Visiting those settlements–initially as hovels, before they gradually grow and become more charming, vibrant places thanks to your efforts in the world–becomes a strong motivator in the absence of a plot to chase. Outside main missions, which are dedicated to the weakening of rival factions and achieving indiscriminate objectives, the game’s “Projects” are one of the most lucrative means of earning experience to better your character. Projects ask you to donate resources you find out in the world and participate in side activities, encouraging you to spend more time in the world, see new areas, fight new battles, search for new equipment to use, and find enjoyment in that. The Division 2 is, after all, a game devoted to providing you with a continuous stream of gripping conflicts, valuable rewards, and a perpetual sense of progress and satisfaction from doing these things. It does those things very well.

You spend a lot of time hunkered behind cover, popping out to fire at any enemy dumb enough to expose themselves. With the large amount of weapon variety available, this familiar facet of combat is solid in itself. Add to that the ability to equip two special abilities from a possible eight–which include tools such as riot shields, drones, and from what I can gather, robot bees of some sort–and combat gets pretty interesting. But the vector that really keeps The Division 2’s combat lively for upwards of 30 hours is the behavior and diversity of its enemy types.

That time you spend in cover? The Division 2 doesn’t want you to just stay there. You can go down very quickly if you’re out in the open, but the game has a dozen ways to alway keep you taking those risks and finding better firing positions–aggressive melee units, remote control cars equipped with sawblades, even the regular assault units regularly attempt to outflank you. Those special abilities? You absolutely need to use them to their full potential to survive some encounters, whether by throwing out the seeker mines or the automated turret to keep enemies at bay while you focus on a priority target, or perhaps utilizing the chemical launcher to start a fire and create a zone of denial.

The effort needed to take out an adversary is relatively reasonable for a shooter that prioritizes the RPG nature of its combat model, but some of the tougher enemies have additional, visible layers of protection which you need to focus on breaking if you want to land critical hits. On the flip side, some enemies have additional, obtuse weak points which can work to your advantage, but only if you can hit them. The fuel tank on the back of a flamethrower unit might be feasible, but when you start running into the terrifying robotic quadruped in post-campaign activities, whose tiny weak point only reveals itself seconds before it fires its devastating railgun, you have to assess whether you can afford to take on that challenge among all the other things pressuring you. The Division 2 throws a lot of hurdles at you, but also gives you the means to quickly counter and resolve them. Whether you can juggle that many balls at once is what keeps combat tense and exciting.

What’s also exciting is the treasure at the end of these gauntlets. These Washington locations, refashioned into memorable combat arenas, are often rewarding in their own right (a fight in a planetarium is an early standout). But improving your equipment is the vital, tangible part that keeps you feeling like you’re making progress. You receive new gear in generous amounts, some dropped by an enemy or looted from a container found in the world, others rewarded for completing a mission, and the next dose always feels in reach. The weapon variety forces you to consider something completely different to take advantage of a power boost, and the armor variety provides an impressive number of different cosmetic looks. The Division 2 incorporates a microtransaction and loot box system for its inconsequential clothing options, though these can be found in the world and earned of your own accord, too.

Like combat, gear remains intriguing throughout Division 2 not just because of the abstract desire to have bigger numbers attached to your person and progress further through the game’s challenges, but also through a raft of “talents.” These add unique perks that complement particular skills or styles of play, like doing extra damage within a certain range, when enemies are burning, or your armor is depleted. The brands of armor also have a part to play, whereby equipping a number of pieces from a single manufacturer provide additional advantages. These bonuses become particularly attractive to obsess over in the endgame, when the world is retaken by a tougher, more merciless enemy faction called Black Tusk, and you need to ensure your ability to fight them is the best it can be.

For the hundreds of pieces you will inevitably want to discard, the ability to sell or dismantle them for parts to either purchase or craft pieces you want gives value to everything you pick up. Or you might retain them in order to move their talents to better gear of the same type, And, as a wonderful convenience, The Division 2 implements numerous features to inspect, mark, dismantle, or equip things you find so quickly and elegantly–sometimes without ever having to enter a menu–that it improves the whole experience of being in its world.

The same can be said of the game’s multiplayer integration, which allows you to easily group up and progress with friends (the game will scale any underpowered players to match the most powerful). Alternatively, you can join a clan, which opens up a variety of weekly challenges, granting valuable rewards, and which features integrated game-wide group communication options. Even if you’re only interested in playing alone (which is more challenging, but entirely feasible), the ability to matchmake with other players at any time, whether that be in the open world, before you start a mission, or when you’re at a final boss, is a very welcome feature.

And when you beat that final boss of the game’s final mission (though, such is the Division 2’s lack of plot framing, I honestly couldn’t tell you his name to save my life) and you think you’ve finally run out of treasure to keep luring you through more fights, the metaphorical table gets flipped. Flipped hard. The Washington DC you spent so long liberating from rival factions becomes completely retaken by the aforementioned Black Tusk. You unlock three unique class specializations, each with their own skill trees to work at unlocking. Your focus on growing two-digit numbers on your character (your level) moves to three-digit numbers (the quality of your gear). Even after finishing the campaign, the game still feels enormous.

More challenging, remixed versions of campaign missions and open-world challenges featuring Black Tusk become available. The idea might sound trite, but in practice, these “Invaded” missions often leverage the new enemy types to create terrifying new combat scenarios that maintain the steady ramp-up of challenges, and they give you a fantastic reason to revisit the more memorable combat arenas with a purpose. However, there’s still a lot I haven’t seen. I’ve yet to dabble in the three Dark Zones, reward-rich areas where players can potentially find themselves up against other, malicious agents as well as the usual enemies. I’m also yet to participate in Conflict, The Division 2’s take on traditional team-based competitive multiplayer modes.

But after spending 30 hours completing the campaign and beginning to dabble in the endgame, I’m still enamored with The Division 2. The range of enemy types continues to keep combat encounters challenging, the equipment I earn and pick up continues to feel different and valuable. The ravaged environments continue to intrigue, and sometimes they’re so stunning I find myself needing to take a screenshot before I move on. There is still so much to see in The Division 2, but I want to take the time to see it. I have absolutely no clue why I’m here or what anyone’s motivations are, and I wish I had a narrative purpose to my endless hunger for progression. But I’m glad to be here right now.

Note: This review-in-progress will be finalized once substantial time has been spent in The Division 2’s endgame content, including Dark Zones and Conflicts.

Like many games in this genre, The Division 2 plays best with a well-coordinated squad of friends covering each other and using unique abilities to fend off mobs with tactical efficiency. Even a squad of random players simply taking down enemies together is sufficient enough to get through most of the game’s missions. But sometimes I just want play as a lone wolf and go at my own pace without the pressure of keeping up with others. And I often ask with these types of games, how viable is it go solo?

It’s the same question I had recently with Fallout 76 and Anthem, and one I’ve been asking since jumping into the original Destiny. Naturally, I thought about the same thing going into The Division 2, and I’m glad that more so than other loot shooters, playing by yourself turned out to be an enjoyable experience that still captures many of the game’s high points.

Something about The Division 2 makes the lone wolf approach work. I mainly attribute it to the fact that it revolves around being a cover-based shooter that taps more into a tactical mindset rather than your ability to eliminate enemy hordes and huge bosses that soak up tons of damage. Don’t get me wrong, The Division 2 has elements of that, but your ability to control combat scenarios and find clever ways to handle sometimes overwhelming firefights are much more important factors.

One particular experience solidified this feeling. The initial firefight in the Air And Space Museum mission proved more difficult than anything before, despite me being the proper level for it. I was downed in short time, twice. In the first attempt, I got caught out of cover for a little too long, and on a second try, flanked by enemies while desperately trying to find safety as my riot shield got torn to shreds. On the third and successful effort, I scouted for higher-level (purple) enemies so I could plan to take them out first before a full-on firefight broke out. With the use of my chem launcher skill and a few well-placed sniper shots, I took out the biggest threats at the outset.

I made my way through the rest of the mission consistently challenged, but ultimately relying on smart use of cover and taking advantage of openings. In the final phase of the whole mission, things played out differently; it forced me to think my way out of a heavily-armored boss pressuring me and encroaching on my space of limited cover. With my back against the wall, I pulled out all the stops; grenades, skills, unloading both primary weapons directly on a weak spot, while dancing around a slim pillar to keep changing my cover angle, I finished the fight by the skin of my teeth.

After 15 hours spent as a lone wolf, I’m still going, and I think that says a lot about how great it executes the core gameplay loop in a playground of fascinating set-pieces.

These moments aren’t unique to solo play by any stretch, but they illustrate why The Division 2 works as a single-player experience. You’re constantly on your toes, considering your position in these battles and trying your best to take out enemies before they get the jump on you and catch you off guard. Of course, there were a number of cases where I simply took aim and landed precision shots with a semi-auto rifle to get through the many phases of missions, but even fairly standard tactics still have a definite satisfaction thanks to a variety of tools at your disposal that have an effective, impactful feel upon using.

Another thing to consider is that playing solo means no one is around to revive you. Missions are usually generous with checkpoints and keeping your progress even when you get killed, but it’s not always the case. As a result, the not-so-forgiving phases give combat somewhat higher stakes like ‘no respawn zone’ phases. Dying in the open world also forces you to respawn at a fast travel point and run back to what you were doing. It’s not ideal, but it does play into how carefully you approach combat when you’re alone.

The Division 2 makes the lonesome journey worthwhile in another capacity–I had the time and space to embrace the wonderfully detailed–albeit dilapidated and abandoned–environments. This is a fairly accurate rendition of the nation’s capital after all, and I’ll be damned if I didn’t treat it as a little field trip. I found the ViewPoint Museum mission to be utterly fascinating as a display of history, media, and politics just as much as the American History Museum’s Vietnam War exhibit. Calling back to the Air And Space Museum, I took the time to actually examine what was on display. It’s a testament to the incredible set-pieces featured in several of the game’s main quests, real-world locations, and museums and landmarks that communicate a history that eerily complements the dark backdrop of The Division’s storyline.

Speaking of story, there’s unfortunately not much to see here. I often go into these types of games solo in order to soak up narrative bits, reflect on in-game events, and make sure I speak to every NPC possible to get the full picture, but that’s certainly not the case. In the original Division, I loved finding ECHOs, which painted a vivid picture of New York was before the Dollar Flu and right when poor folks scrambled to survive, and in turn, tried to understand an entirely new lore. However, The Division 2 falls short in delivering a story worth caring about. The canon has already been built, we know how dire the virus made things, and it rests on that. It’s a generic story about rebuilding with perfunctory attempts at emotional stakes. Factions exist to put a name and evil archetype on enemies that you don’t feel bad fighting against. And NPCs primarily serve functional purposes at settlements and bases, nothing more. In a way, The Division 2’s design flows like it’s specifically tuned for the squad that wants to churn through missions at a rapid pace with narrative as an afterthought. If anything, this approach keeps the action moving and places less emphasis on a weaker aspect of the game.

It’s not an entirely seamless experience on your own; there will be times when waves of Hyenas or True Sons just become too much to handle, and prove more frustrating than challenging. These are often scenarios that would’ve been easier with a mate or two to pick you up when you get downed, lay down covering fire, or take out imminent threats. Admittedly, I haven’t delved too deep into the Dark Zone, so I can’t speak to how one of the more captivating features of this game fares with no one to watch your back. But for the majority of The Division 2’s main questline, a solo player should be just as excited to engage in the game’s satisfying combat system while being able to handle its bigger fights.

At some point, you’ll inevitably squad up with randoms or friends because, of course, that’s what a multiplayer shared-world game is going to push you to do. But overall, the grind of The Division 2 delivers plenty of fun and a challenge that’s manageable, especially when incorporating more of your skills and devising ways to move from cover to cover and create your own flanking routes. After 15 hours spent as a lone wolf, I’m still going, and I think that says a lot about how great it executes the core gameplay loop in a playground of fascinating set-pieces.